Blogs 4 Brownback

January 1, 2008

Crime and Punishment

Crime and PunishmentA reader sent me this article, and it makes me see red:

As Sarah Kreager, 26, tried to sit down on a Baltimore City bus Tuesday, police say, a middle-schooler told her she couldn’t. When she attempted to take another seat, a middle-schooler wouldn’t let her. Finally, according to police, Kreager just sat down.

She was “immediately attacked” by nine students — three females and six males — from Robert Poole Middle School. They punched and kicked her at 2:59 p.m. at the intersection of 33rd Street and Chestnut Avenue, according to Maryland Transit Administration police.

Kreager was dragged off the bus and her boyfriend, Troy Ennis, attempted to get her back on, police said.

She sustained “serious injuries” and had to be transported to the University of Maryland Shock Trauma Center, according to a police report.

Kreager suffered two broken bones in her left eye socket, police said.

“She had eye muscles that were damaged,” a police report states. “She had deep lacerations on the top of her head and another above her neck.”

Two seats and the bus’ rear glass were destroyed during the attack, police said.

The bus driver on the No. 27 line quickly called police, who responded and arrested the nine juveniles, said Jawauna Greene, an MTA police spokeswoman.

All nine suspects, ages 14 and 15, were arrested and charged with aggravated assault.

Their bus tickets — provided by the school — have been revoked, Greene said.

“Riding the bus is a privilege,” she said. “Public safety is our primary concern.”

I don’t live in, or near Baltimore, and I wouldn’t want to. But this is a national problem. All of our major cities, and many of our minor cities, are turning out like this. Crime and the young age of the new criminals are issues of primary national concern. As the policewoman noted, “Public safety is our primary concern.”

The reader who sent me the link also included these comments of his own on solutions to the problem:

Soldiers on the streets are what quell riots, not what start them. Weakness starts them. Lilly-livered, p***ified urban strategies that rely solely on miracles for solving real practical problems. Strategies like…um…hoping gentrification will put a new coat of whitewash on the ghetto. Hint: gentrification doesn’t solve poverty. The poor and f***ed are still poor and f***ed no matter how many shell games you use to move the ghetto around.

Call it what it is: The cities are warzones. Cops are just soldiers, and they’re badly trained and underequiped soldiers at that. Put real soldiers on the streets and stop the drug trade and predatory violence dead solid cold. You slang a rock or try to jack somebody, you die. They shoot one of the soldiers, raze the block he was standing on. Dumbs**t bangers only get one thing, strength. And we just retreat because race is involved, and when it comes to race, it’s all about bulls**t.

By every available piece of data, a soldier in Baghdad is safer than the mean citizen of most major American cities. An Iraqi policeman (aka big f***ing target) is safer there than in NO, Detroit, DC, Baltimore, NY, and Philly. Last I heard, there was a war/civil war/insurrection going on over there. But here? Nothing to see here, move along, pay no attention to the blood on the street or the hate filled black man waving a gun. Nope, no insurrection here.

I couldn’t agree more, personally. I couldn’t have said it better myself. These jackals only understand force, so force is what we need to give them. We need to hire some contractors to patrol the streets of our cities, and they need kill on sight orders for anyone committing a crime or out after curfew. It’s the only way to keep this country safe. And keeping America safe is the only way to keep it free.

94 Comments »

  1. Soldiers on the streets are what quell riots, not what start them.

    Soldiers on the streets are what starts armed insurgencies, not what quells them. Especially in a country as gunnuts as the USA.

    They shoot one of the soldiers, raze the block he was standing on.

    And thus have a number of more soldiers killed because you dumb**** just managed it to really piss off all the innocent bystanders.

    By every available piece of data, a soldier in Baghdad is safer than the mean citizen of most major American cities. An Iraqi policeman (aka big f***ing target) is safer there than in NO, Detroit, DC, Baltimore, NY, and Philly.

    By every availble piece of data, this guys either fake or almost too dumb to breathe.

    the hate filled black man waving a gun

    And a bit of rascism thrown in for good reason….

    Otherwise, have a nice day building your police-state. Wow, another reason why I´m glad to live in Europe. We don´t have to throw away our liberty because of crime rates and some paranoid morons that are so obsessed with their precious security that they are willing to throw everything their ancestors ever achieved away.

    “For who is willing to trade in part of his liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security” -Benjamin Franklin

    Comment by PG — January 1, 2008 @ 6:37 am | Reply

  2. You sound like an anarchist, PG, and that Ben Franklin quote is taken completely out of context. He was talking about those willing to obey British authority, not those willing to stand by while 12-year-old thugs beat citizens within an inch of their lives on municipal bus routes.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 1, 2008 @ 8:52 am | Reply

  3. 1. No, I´m not an anarchist. I´m a bit too old to believe THAT bull****. Centrist and pro-democracy-guy here.
    2. He was talking about any government. Besides, why only stand by? Why hasn´t someone in the bus, or the driver, done something? Arming the police out the whazoo or letting the army march on the streets like some kinda occupattion force isn´t going to solve the root of the problem. What´s really needed is simply some courage from the normal citicens.

    Comment by PG — January 1, 2008 @ 9:29 am | Reply

  4. So, you want the normal citizens to start taking matters into their own hands. That’s called vigilantism. In the extreme, anarchism.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 1, 2008 @ 11:19 am | Reply

  5. Sisyphus, you are not convincing anyone with your childish name-calling. That Ben Franklin quote was used in the correct context no matter what you say. And don’t tell me that he doesn’t know what he is doing just because he lives in Europe. Do not undermind someone just because they don’t agree with your beliefs or how your country is run. Adding more security on the streets just gives the general idea that no one can be trusted in this world. Let people work out problems by themselves. We do not need government intervention for every little problem with society. Even if PG is an anarchist, which he isn’t, it’s still better than a conservative republican.

    And if I end up getting called a hypocrit, then thats fine because the b4b staff has already recieved that title long ago.

    Comment by The Nobody — January 1, 2008 @ 11:54 am | Reply

  6. So, Sisyphus, if you were on that bus you would have just sat there and watched instead of helping?

    Comment by Curiouser and Curiouser — January 1, 2008 @ 12:00 pm | Reply

  7. If I had been on that bus I would’ve called the police. What would you have done, pulled out your “piece” and shot a 12-year-old in the head?

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 1, 2008 @ 12:13 pm | Reply

  8. “Sisyphus, you are not convincing anyone with your childish name-calling. That Ben Franklin quote was used in the correct context no matter what you say. And don’t tell me that he doesn’t know what he is doing just because he lives in Europe. Do not undermind someone just because they don’t agree with your beliefs or how your country is run. Adding more security on the streets just gives the general idea that no one can be trusted in this world. Let people work out problems by themselves. We do not need government intervention for every little problem with society. Even if PG is an anarchist, which he isn’t, it’s still better than a conservative republican.”

    Whatever, anarchist. You’d rather have 10,000 little Hitlers running around dispensing their own brands of justice rather than using the police and military to maintain order, in accordance with the American way of life and the United States Constitution and the Holy Bible. That makes you an anarchist no matter what you call yourself.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 1, 2008 @ 12:18 pm | Reply

  9. So, you want the normal citizens to start taking matters into their own hands. That’s called vigilantism. In the extreme, anarchism.

    I did not say that they should do something like lynching those perps. Hell, in many cases, all you need to do is to bring up some stiff talk and they´ll stop bashing the poor victim. If that doesn´t work, get a few people to help you (which are more likely to do now, as someone has already started doing the right thing) and hold them in place for the police to arrive. (Calling the cops is of course also required.)

    In the end, all you do is to help the police doing it´s job. And as long as you don´t break the law doing so, I can hardly see any fault in that. I don´t know the english term for it, but here in Germany that´s called Zivilcourage and it´s generally seen as a good thing.

    interfering before people get hurt while avoiding violence = good
    doing mob justice instead of handing the perps over to the authorities = bad

    Comment by PG — January 1, 2008 @ 12:55 pm | Reply

  10. “I did not say that they should do something like lynching those perps. Hell, in many cases, all you need to do is to bring up some stiff talk and they´ll stop bashing the poor victim.”

    Quote the expert on dealing with gangs of murderous delinquents, aren’t you?

    “If that doesn´t work, get a few people to help you”

    Yes, that was my plan. A few people called the police, and civilian contractors deputized with military powers.

    “(which are more likely to do now, as someone has already started doing the right thing)”

    Well, who even knows how many people were on this bus? Nine hooligans, you, the girl, and the bus driver, say. The boyfriend was out the door.

    “and hold them in place for the police to arrive. (Calling the cops is of course also required.)”

    Sorry. Even with a gun, holding nine people still might be impossible for one person.

    “In the end, all you do is to help the police doing it´s job. And as long as you don´t break the law doing so, I can hardly see any fault in that. I don´t know the english term for it, but here in Germany that´s called Zivilcourage and it´s generally seen as a good thing.”

    Civic duty would probably be the translation. My duty is to call the police. If the liberals hadn’t taken our guns away from us, I could do more, but with the law the way it is, that’s really the most you can ask for. If I had a gun, I’d give the swine a warning shot, and if that didn’t work I’d start taking out kneecaps.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 1, 2008 @ 1:25 pm | Reply

  11. Wow, what a frightening story. This is what liberalism leads to. It’s time to clamp down on senseless crime. Picture a boot stamping criminals in the face, again and again. That’s the solution.

    Comment by Psycheout — January 1, 2008 @ 2:00 pm | Reply

  12. Quote the expert on dealing with gangs of murderous delinquents, aren’t you?

    No, I´m just reurgitating a few things that have solved such situations without people getting hurt even before both of us have been born.

    Yes, that was my plan. A few people called the police, and civilian contractors deputized with military powers.

    For what the hell would you need military firepower when dealing with people that have in the most extreme case, handguns? You don´t use a freakin thermonuke to kill a single soldier, either. YOu american and your obsession with firepower….. that´s what cost you Vietnam and if things don´t change, it´s this attitude that´ll cost you the Middle East.

    Besides, PMC´s are perhaps the worst idea ever. Think about it: You´re creating what is basically a private army which´s financial goodbeing is dependent on the existence of a war or similar. Using such people for deescalation (like in Iraq) is like trying to extinguish a fire by spraying gasoline on it.

    Well, who even knows how many people were on this bus? Nine hooligans, you, the girl, and the bus driver, say. The boyfriend was out the door.

    Even then I´d rather step in with the method I just stated. I can´t look the other way when such stuff happens.

    Sorry. Even with a gun, holding nine people still might be impossible for one person.

    Even then it´s worth a try. Besides, all your “lets put armed people on the streets” attitude wouldn´t have worked either with no one in the bus.

    Civic duty would probably be the translation. My duty is to call the police. If the liberals hadn’t taken our guns away from us, I could do more, but with the law the way it is, that’s really the most you can ask for. If I had a gun, I’d give the swine a warning shot, and if that didn’t work I’d start taking out kneecaps.

    Civic duty is imo simply treating everyone else the same way you want to be treated. And that means helping the poor man/woman. Besides, I already gave you the hint to learn some martial arts. That´s a weapon no one can take away from you.

    Comment by PG — January 1, 2008 @ 2:27 pm | Reply

  13. No, I´m just reurgitating a few things that have solved such situations without people getting hurt even before both of us have been born.”

    In other words, plans invented before 12-year-olds started beating women up on buses. Obsolete plans of no practical value. Hey, I’ve got an idea! Maybe we could organize spear-wielding phalanxes of citizens to stop crime in our cities! Worked for Sparta.

    “For what the hell would you need military firepower when dealing with people that have in the most extreme case, handguns? You don´t use a freakin thermonuke to kill a single soldier, either. YOu american and your obsession with firepower….. that´s what cost you Vietnam and if things don´t change, it´s this attitude that´ll cost you the Middle East.”

    We don’t need advice on winning wars from people that are 0-2 for their last conflicts, thank you very much. By the way, we won in Vietnam, and we’re winning in Iraq.

    Even then I´d rather step in with the method I just stated. I can´t look the other way when such stuff happens.”

    Call the police. Beyond that, anything you do is just going to leave 2 bodies for the police to pick up instead of one.

    “Even then it´s worth a try. Besides, all your “lets put armed people on the streets” attitude wouldn´t have worked either with no one in the bus.”

    If we had a soldier on every bus, I’d like to see the brats beat a woman up. They’d eat hot lead before they even got 3 punches in.

    “Civic duty is imo simply treating everyone else the same way you want to be treated. And that means helping the poor man/woman.”

    Off-topic. Anyway, the best help is safe streets.

    “Besides, I already gave you the hint to learn some martial arts. That´s a weapon no one can take away from you.”

    A shot to the kneecap can.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 1, 2008 @ 3:28 pm | Reply

  14. I am astounded by the amount of hyperbole and hatred in your blog posts. They were NOT 12, they were all aged 14-15. No one died, no one was murdered. Having curfews? Soldiers patrolling the streets with shoot to kill orders? Sounds pretty gestapo like to me.

    What you don’t seem to realize that this isn’t a problem that brute force will fix. Good parenting, proper government support, social aid, changes in media portrayal of minorities, exponential increases in education, etc. If these kinds of measures were taken, it would make a lot better impact than soldiers with m-16’s wondering the streets spray happy.

    And since you only seem to understand attacking people’s character instead of arguments: You’re a racist, ignorant, sheltered, closed minded, neo-nazi extremist. Fuck you and the white horse you rode in on.

    Comment by no — January 1, 2008 @ 3:44 pm | Reply

  15. No, I would not. But if people had stood up and helped, the situation would have been different. Now, to further my question, would you have helped the person after the fact or would you have just sat there, dumb and mute while they lay there injured?

    To a side topic, I don’t even own a gun. Do you? Do you carry it with you always?

    Lastly, you’re advocating having people on the bus with weapons to shoot the offender (see comment 13 where you said If we had a soldier on every bus, I’d like to see the brats beat a woman up. They’d eat hot lead before they even got 3 punches in.). So shooting someone if you are military and shooting someone if you’re not. For the same reason, in the same situation, completely unjustified in both cases is acceptable to you. But you’re willing, with your taxes, to pay for someone to sit on a bus with an open liscense to shoot someone whom they deem to be ‘disturbing the peace’?

    There was another story i read today where a woman was removed from a bus for refusing to stop reading the bible out loud, and disturbing other passengers on the bus. I’m wondering how you would have behaved if you were on that bus.

    Comment by Curiouser and Curiouser — January 1, 2008 @ 3:53 pm | Reply

  16. “No, I would not. But if people had stood up and helped, the situation would have been different. Now, to further my question, would you have helped the person after the fact or would you have just sat there, dumb and mute while they lay there injured? ”

    No, you would not what?

    I would’ve helped them after the fact. Who wouldn’t?

    “To a side topic, I don’t even own a gun. Do you? Do you carry it with you always?”

    I respectfully decline to answer those questions.

    “For the same reason, in the same situation, completely unjustified in both cases is acceptable to you. But you’re willing, with your taxes, to pay for someone to sit on a bus with an open liscense to shoot someone whom they deem to be ‘disturbing the peace’?”

    I trust the military/contractors to use deadly force responsibly. I can’t say the same for trusting every moonbat, weirdo, and creep I see in public. Especially not the kinds of people you encounter on city buses.

    “There was another story i read today where a woman was removed from a bus for refusing to stop reading the bible out loud, and disturbing other passengers on the bus. I’m wondering how you would have behaved if you were on that bus.”

    I think she should’ve been allowed to stay on the bus. If I’d been there, I would’ve nodded approvingly to her quotations. If the other passengers had tried to stop her, I would’ve interceded on her behalf.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 1, 2008 @ 4:18 pm | Reply

  17. “I am astounded by the amount of hyperbole and hatred in your blog posts. They were NOT 12, they were all aged 14-15.”

    Then they have even less excuse.

    “No one died, no one was murdered.”

    Luckily.

    “Having curfews?”

    That’s what you do with misbehaving youngsters.

    “Soldiers patrolling the streets with shoot to kill orders? Sounds pretty gestapo like to me.”

    Anything that doesn’t involve roving gangs of thugs dictating private law at gunpoint probably sounds like the Gestapo to you, anarchist.

    “What you don’t seem to realize that this isn’t a problem that brute force will fix.”

    Force is the only language they understand or care about. Go ahead, treefrog. Hug yourself a street thug. See if it makes him nicer to you while he’s stealing your purse and brutalizing you.

    “Good parenting, proper government support, social aid, changes in media portrayal of minorities, exponential increases in education, etc.”

    Oh, God. Here we go with the Hippie nonsense.

    “If these kinds of measures were taken, it would make a lot better impact than soldiers with m-16’s wondering the streets spray happy.”

    Sure. Reading someone a book is a much better deterrent to crime than them watching one of their criminal buddies get shot. Why don’t you go sing Kumbaya with Osama Bin Laden, pal? The adults are trying to have a discussion here.

    “And since you only seem to understand attacking people’s character instead of arguments: You’re a racist, ignorant, sheltered, closed minded, neo-nazi extremist.”

    Coming from you, that’s a compliment.

    “F-ck you and the white horse you rode in on.”

    I didn’t ride a horse here. I’m sitting in a chair, typing. What have horses got to do with it?

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 1, 2008 @ 4:27 pm | Reply

  18. I agree, Sisyphus.

    The people who commit crimes like the ones on that bus, need to be taken straight to the guillitine.

    When I read stuff like what they done, it just makes me feel like a tank inside.

    The suffering that little girl went through.

    I tell you what, that just burns me, if people don’t wake up, the Lord is going to judge this Nation in a not so friendly way.

    ~ Jeremiah

    Comment by Jeremiah — January 1, 2008 @ 4:42 pm | Reply

  19. In other words, plans invented before 12-year-olds started beating women up on buses. Obsolete plans of no practical value. Hey, I’ve got an idea! Maybe we could organize spear-wielding phalanxes of citizens to stop crime in our cities! Worked for Sparta.

    My mistake. I forgot the part that said that it still works today.
    Has been demonstrated quite repeadiately all over the western world.

    We don’t need advice on winning wars from people that are 0-2 for their last conflicts, thank you very much. By the way, we won in Vietnam, and we’re winning in Iraq.

    Tell me, what kind of government has `Nam right now? Begins with C…
    And you´re “winning” in Iraq since when? Fact is, nothing has really changed since Saddam was out of power, the IED´s keep exploding, the snipers keep picking off people and everyone feels reeaaallly safe…..

    And again: What´s the reason to use military firepower to solve a civilian problem?

    Call the police. Beyond that, anything you do is just going to leave 2 bodies for the police to pick up instead of one.

    MY experiences tend to differ from what you exspect.

    If we had a soldier on every bus, I’d like to see the brats beat a woman up. They’d eat hot lead before they even got 3 punches in.

    Changing topics here. You asked what if there would be no one in the bus. Besides, in that case they´d rather stab that poor soldier from behind and take the gun. Congratulations, now you have criminals with automatic firepower.

    A shot to the kneecap can.

    If you really try to frontally mess with a gun from more than 1 meter distance, you´re an idiot and you deserve it.

    In the end, the thing is simply that the military is neither equipped nor trained to do the job of the police. The Army´s a broadsword, it can´t do the job of a scalpel. And if it tries, the collatteral damage would cause a horrifying backlash. For then you´d have your anarchy.

    I trust the military/contractors to use deadly force responsibly.

    In such a situation, you trust an organisation that is known for being sometimes a bit too trigger happy and preferring overkill? (Example: That “Chemical Weapons Factory” in Sudan. Bombed half the neighbourhood to rubble together with the building. And it turned out to be making aspirine.) Now that I call naive.

    Lastly, if you wanna live in a police state, why don´t you move to North Korea?

    Comment by PG — January 1, 2008 @ 4:53 pm | Reply

  20. You asked what if there would be no one in the bus. Besides, in that case they´d rather stab that poor soldier from behind and take the gun.

    Not if he’s at the back of the bus, he’s got a perfect view of everything, and no one is behind him, if somebody comes up to him, they have to come from the front of the bus, and he’s got everything under full control.

    ~ Jeremiah

    Comment by Jeremiah — January 1, 2008 @ 5:01 pm | Reply

  21. Not if he’s at the back of the bus, he’s got a perfect view of everything, and no one is behind him, if somebody comes up to him, they have to come from the front of the bus, and he’s got everything under full control.

    Yeah, if he were some kinda machine. Unluckily, humans are not infallible. And it´s still beside the point as Sisi´s scenario stated no one except you, a civvie, being in the bus besides the driver, the victim and the perps.

    Comment by PG — January 1, 2008 @ 6:25 pm | Reply

  22. Oh! Rather than just put armed soldiers on our streets and busses, how about we just nuke every god damned ghetto known to the people of the United States of America. Hows that idea sound?

    Comment by Hissho — January 1, 2008 @ 6:35 pm | Reply

  23. “I didn’t ride a horse here. I’m sitting in a chair, typing.” – Sisyphus
    Thats all you ever do, attention/drama whore.

    Comment by Anonymous — January 1, 2008 @ 6:48 pm | Reply

  24. Comment by Hissho — January 1, 2008 @ 6:35 pm

    Well, no, cuz then too many good people would be hurt.

    We want to crack down on these creeps who do bad stuff, like the murderers. Sentence them to death as soon as the DNA test is revealed.

    ~ Jeremiah

    Comment by Jeremiah — January 1, 2008 @ 7:06 pm | Reply

  25. Yeah, if he were some kinda machine.

    Look, no student is supposed to be carrying a weapon on the bus, because weapons aren’t allowed in schools … and the perps ain’t got a chance. Cuz the officer, trooper, can fire much faster than they can make a move.

    So, what do I say? It’s time to lay the hammer down on these kooks.

    ~ Jeremiah

    Comment by Jeremiah — January 1, 2008 @ 7:13 pm | Reply

  26. Look, no student is supposed to be carrying a weapon on the bus, because weapons aren’t allowed in schools … and the perps ain’t got a chance. Cuz the officer, trooper, can fire much faster than they can make a move.

    Yeah, because a few students going for the last ranks in the bus are soooo obviously a threat to him, he will shoot them on sight. If that were reality, the public would go out rioting and lynching soldiers after about 3 days and a few thousand innoccent casualties. Have fun with the 2nd american civil war.

    It still stands. Everyone who wants to live in a “safe” police-state or military-state should move to North Korea ASAP.

    Comment by PG — January 1, 2008 @ 7:55 pm | Reply

  27. Have fun with the 2nd american civil war.

    No, no, no you geek.

    We only shoot to save the life of another. And to keep from happening, what happened to the girl in this instance.

    Or, do you like to see this kind of stuff happen?

    Do you like to see people with their eyes swelled shut and bones broken in their face?

    If that’s what you like, then by all means, be my guest, and move the heck out of this country, because I don’t need people who praise murderers and hellians, I have no use for them. So be gone.

    This country was based on God-fearing principles, and that’s what we’ve got to preserve or else the left-tards will turn it into a hell-hole.

    I will give my last breath defending this Christian Nation.

    ~ Jeremiah

    Comment by Jeremiah — January 1, 2008 @ 8:26 pm | Reply

  28. Well, this is a situation that calls out for strict discipline. The fathers of these girls should be severely punished for failing to teach them proper behavior.

    I think we should whip the fathers, spank the mothers and force the girls, with proddings by pitchhforks for example, to clean up the blood.

    Then I would make them ride the bus on their knees! with signs around their necks! and hire mimes to insult them during an entire school day.

    that would get results.

    Comment by Marty McPain — January 1, 2008 @ 8:33 pm | Reply

  29. “Do you like to see people with their eyes swelled shut and bones broken in their face?”

    where?

    Comment by Marty McPain — January 1, 2008 @ 8:34 pm | Reply

  30. where?

    Read the article……Idiot.

    ~ Jeremiah

    Comment by Jeremiah — January 1, 2008 @ 8:38 pm | Reply

  31. The middle schoolers are obviously angry Right-Wing Conservative Republican influenced who are acting out as a result of repression from abuse given by their Conservative-minded parents.

    Conservativism is a deadly disease plaguing the land. The only known cure is to let them come out of the closet for some McPain/KKKorkkker style sodomy. Just ask BJ.

    Comment by SisyphusLicksPsycheoutsPantyParts — January 1, 2008 @ 8:52 pm | Reply

  32. We could do much better off without the ignorant fools who say stuff like this one at January 1, 2008 @ 8:52 pm

    People who are largely ignorant of society, and its moral degeneration. People that are blind. Fools.

    ~ Jeremiah

    Comment by Jeremiah — January 1, 2008 @ 9:18 pm | Reply

  33. “In other words, plans invented before 12-year-olds started beating women up on buses. Obsolete plans of no practical value. Hey, I’ve got an idea! Maybe we could organize spear-wielding phalanxes of citizens to stop crime in our cities! Worked for Sparta.”

    The massive amounts of irony in that statement are overwhelming.

    “By the way, we won in Vietnam”

    My father fought in Vietnam. He was in the Army during the final years of the war, and remained in active duty for over a decade afterward. He remembers us LOSING. Every American history book you will ever read states that the United states lost the Vietnam War. Are you going to call a U.S. Army veteran a liar? And a Green Beret at that!

    “Call the police. Beyond that, anything you do is just going to leave 2 bodies for the police to pick up instead of one.”

    Wow. If everyone were like Sisyphus, there would be no Good Samaritans. “What’s that, Lassie? Timmy’s fallen down the well? Who cares–he can climb, can’t he?”

    Human nature being what it is (i.e., imperfect), no city will ever be 100% safe. Learning self-defense and using those skills to defend yourself and your fellow citizens is the ultimate form of patriotism–and you don’t have to join the military, or the police force, to do it. Everyone should learn martial arts, or at the very least carry a weapon or can of pepper spray. I never leave home without my knife, myself, unless I’m going on a plane.

    “What you don’t seem to realize that this isn’t a problem that brute force will fix. Good parenting, proper government support, social aid, changes in media portrayal of minorities, exponential increases in education, etc. If these kinds of measures were taken, it would make a lot better impact than soldiers with m-16’s wondering the streets spray happy.”

    Amen! And on a similar topic, does no one else notice that those kids were riding home on a metro bus instead of a school bus? Why are there no school buses in their district?

    “I would’ve helped them after the fact. Who wouldn’t?”

    If a woman is abducted, raped, and then murdered, the time to act is while the crime is in progress, not after the fact. If the woman’s already dead when you call 911, it doesn’t do her a lot of good, now does it?

    “I trust the military/contractors to use deadly force responsibly. I can’t say the same for trusting every moonbat, weirdo, and creep I see in public.”

    And what makes you think that no moonbats, weirdos, and creeps ever make it into the military? Surely you’ve heard of a dishonorable discharge. The military doesn’t do a psychological exam as part of their recruitment process, only a physical one. And a private contractor would be less likely to check, since their main goal would be making money off the government. I’d rather my hard-earned tax dollars didn’t go to giving some civilian nutjob a gun and a free pass to “ensure domestic tranquility” however he or she sees fit.

    “Force is the only language they understand or care about.”

    Apparently you’ve forgotten that even criminals are human beings. They may have strayed from the divine path, but they can return to it. The whole point of Christianity–the very reason for the Crucifixion–is that everyone can be redeemed, if they only repent of their sins. Obviously you can’t act chummy while they’re attacking you. But you can help prevent criminal behavior by being nice to people in your day-to-day interaction, especially young children. If these people had been treated a bit nicer when they were younger, and had had good role models growing up, they probably wouldn’t have turned to crime in the first place. That’s why I support mentoring programs–a lot of urban kids don’t have fathers, and without a positive male role model, children are more likely to become delinquents. A mentor can be a sort of foster father to these kids, and help keep them on the straight and narrow.

    “And again: What´s the reason to use military firepower to solve a civilian problem?”

    Amen, PG. These people complain about there not being enough support for the war, and then they turn around and suggest wasting military resources creating an American SS. The truth is, we need to offer incentives for people to call the police in an emergency. I’ve heard stories of people being attacked in NYC, in front of a crowd no less, and nobody bothering to even call the police! We already have penalties for filing a false report–why not add in a $20 reward every time you call in and help put a criminal behind bars? It would certainly encourage a speedy response to criminal behavior, and increase the effectiveness of the police force without having to bring soldiers in.

    “The Army´s a broadsword, it can´t do the job of a scalpel. And if it tries, the collateral damage would cause a horrifying backlash. For then you´d have your anarchy.”

    I guess Sisyphus is choosing to ignore the numerous cases in which that’s actually happened. How else did Iraq get so bad in the first place?

    “Look, no student is supposed to be carrying a weapon on the bus, because weapons aren’t allowed in schools … and the perps ain’t got a chance. Cuz the officer, trooper, can fire much faster than they can make a move.”

    You are naive, aren’t you? I can think of numerous non-weapons that could easily be used as such by any street thug. Ordinary keys can be used as an eye gouge, heavy school books as a club, and don’t tell me that hitting someone while wearing a large ring doesn’t hurt them more than hitting them barehanded. Not to mention the fact that these kids are quick. If they grab a human shield, no soldier would dare fire on them for fear of killing the innocent person, because even the best sharpshooter has difficulty making a shot like that.

    “Well, this is a situation that calls out for strict discipline. The fathers of these girls should be severely punished for failing to teach them proper behavior.”

    Exactly! Parental discipline and mentor programs would solve a lot of the problems in our inner cities. Bear in mind that a lot of those poor girls don’t have fathers, either because Daddy cut and run instead of being a man and taking responsibility, or because their fathers are dead. Male role models are helpful for girls as well as boys, as every survey on the subject shows quite clearly.

    Comment by L — January 1, 2008 @ 9:44 pm | Reply

  34. L,

    You spent all that precious width, and didn’t write crap.

    Why don’t go away and take your fellow Socialist traveller buddies with you.

    ~ Jeremiah

    Comment by Jeremiah — January 1, 2008 @ 10:31 pm | Reply

  35. Actually, I pointed out the need for mentor groups, better public services in urban areas, self-defense, and incentives for the reporting of crimes in progress to the authorities. If you’re going to respond to my comments, please read them instead of glancing at the length and saying “tl;dr” because it really doesn’t say much for your intelligence, manners, or reading skills.

    Comment by L — January 2, 2008 @ 12:31 am | Reply

  36. L, you used proper grammar and punctuation, theres no way they can discern all that. Its much easier to just shoot people, apparently.

    Comment by no — January 2, 2008 @ 1:27 am | Reply

  37. Yeah, reading takes time and effort. murder only takes:
    a gun, bullet, and trigger finger
    a knife and a strong arm
    and wooden spoon and some imagination

    Comment by Elephant Bones — January 2, 2008 @ 2:46 am | Reply

  38. “By the way, we won in Vietnam, and we’re winning in Iraq.”

    We won in vietnam? Are you really that much of an idiot? We lost in vietnam, and we lost in Korea. I think you need to go back and study history a bit more closely, do you really think that you can convince any of us that we won the vietnam conflict? Far too many of us still remember. Funny that you would say such a thing at New years, since it was on new years 1968 (february 1st, in vietnam) that the war turned around and put us on the road to defeat. But that was 40 years ago, doubt you could remember what it was like that day, but I do. The war ended on April 30th 1975 and was a total defeat for the American and South vietnamese forces. Vietnam is now under communist rule (North Vietnam) and Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh city, named for the victor’s leader. Now, do you really wish to claim we won when there is tons of proof to the contrary? Even our own Republican administration will tell you we lost, so, how about just a tiny bit of evidence that you are right about that statement? Don’t got any do ya?
    the verdict:
    Still a liar.

    Comment by Arn — January 2, 2008 @ 9:21 am | Reply

  39. Now, just a bit more on topic. Why do you keep changing the kids age to 12? It was 14 and 15 year olds, not 12 year olds. And if we were all on that bus together the first thing I would have done is shoot you, then deal with the youngsters in a way to protect the victim and have the perpetraters arrested. We’re talking about kids here, they took adbvantage of a lone woman, but they were still kids and faced with a real opponent such as a grown man they would have settled down quickly enough. Only cowards would pull off a chickenshit attack like this, and any real threat to them would put them on the run. Your ideas of killing them just goes along with all of your other reasons for killing people. You just like the idea of killing, you’re a sadistic bastard and nothing more. Oh wait, forget that “nothing more” statement, because you are also one of the worlds biggest liars.

    Comment by Arn — January 2, 2008 @ 9:44 am | Reply

  40. “We won in vietnam? Are you really that much of an idiot? We lost in vietnam, and we lost in Korea.”

    HAHAHAHAHA! You’re an idiot, Arn! Let me guess, we lost WWII, too. What about the American Revolution? Did we lose that one, or does it count as a tie?

    “The war ended on April 30th 1975 and was a total defeat for the American and South vietnamese forces.”

    America left the war in 1973. Vietnam was still free then. What happened after 1973 is none of our business.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 2, 2008 @ 10:24 am | Reply

  41. Once again Sisy, just one little piece of evidence that we won, other than your own stupid opinion which is totally wrong. As I said, I can still remember it, where were you in those days? The last American military personnel were set to be evacuated from Saigon (now Ho Chi Menh City) on April 29th 1975, one day before the official end of the war. Under heavy fire the remaining Americans fled from Saigon by helicopter early in the morning of April 30th as the North Vietnamese closed in on the city, many civilians were storming the capitol in hopes that the Americans would still help them but they were left behind to face their own fates as America left the city in defeat. There are thousands of places where you can find this info on the net, just search the vietnam war and you can find them. My information comes straight from the department of defense and from my own memory, your information comes from your own demented little mind.

    Comment by Arn — January 2, 2008 @ 10:52 am | Reply

  42. We could do much better off without the ignorant fools who say stuff like this one at January 1, 2008 @ 8:52 pm

    People who are largely ignorant of society, and its moral degeneration. People that are blind. Fools.

    ~ Jeremiah

    Comment by Jeremiah — January 1, 2008 @ 9:18 pm

    I’d say that fool is dead on right. Greed is the root of the downfall of society and guess who leads that mantra……..Greedy conservative minded fascists bent on materialistic gain.

    The real fools are those that choose to not recognise it or are just plain blind.

    Comment by Spacebrother — January 2, 2008 @ 11:06 am | Reply

  43. “Why don’t go away and take your fellow Socialist traveller buddies with you.”

    ~ Jeremiah

    Fascism by Jeremiah — January 1, 2008 @ 10:31 pm

    Jeremiah, buffoonery at it’s finest.

    Comment by Spacebrother — January 2, 2008 @ 11:10 am | Reply

  44. “Let me guess, we lost WWII, too. What about the American Revolution? Did we lose that one, or does it count as a tie?”

    uh, um……….

    “America left the war in 1973. Vietnam was still free then. What happened after 1973 is none of our business.”

    DumbASS by Sisyphus — January 2, 2008 @ 10:24 am

    You really are stupid Sixsioxsixyphus are’nt you?

    Comment by Spacebrother — January 2, 2008 @ 11:14 am | Reply

  45. I’ll say it again, Arn: Vietnam was free when America left the war. What happened to some American diplomats does not change the fact that we won the war during our period of participation in it. Vietnam is not America. If Vietnam lost, that doesn’t mean we lost.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 2, 2008 @ 12:40 pm | Reply

  46. “I’ll say it again, Arn: Vietnam was free when America left the war. What happened to some American diplomats does not change the fact that we won the war during our period of participation in it. Vietnam is not America. If Vietnam lost, that doesn’t mean we lost.”

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 2, 2008 @ 12:40 pm

    You must be high on drugs. Vietnam, like Iraq, was a failure from the very beginning.

    On the other side, leaving Viertnam was a cowardly act of cut and run Republicans. If we were winning, why did Conservatard Nixon and his Republican cowards cut and run?

    Comment by Spacebrother — January 2, 2008 @ 12:52 pm | Reply

  47. “On the other side, leaving Viertnam was a cowardly act of cut and run Republicans. If we were winning, why did Conservatard Nixon and his Republican cowards cut and run?”

    Pressure from the traitor Dems in Congress and their Marxist Hippie allies.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 2, 2008 @ 1:11 pm | Reply

  48. OK, Sisy’s an idiot, no further comment necessary. But just to be fair here Sisy, show us just one little piece of evidence that we won in Nam,, just one,,, you can’t do it becauase you are wrong. We started losing during the Tet offensive and we never regained the upper hand again. We lost, plain and simple,, since you obviously don’t remember those days yourself go ahead and search for information on the outcome of the vietnam war, if you find anything saying we won (officially, not some other idiots blog, but real documentation on our victory) then please post it. I know you wont find it though, because it doesn’t exist. But, once an idiot always an idiot, and you are definately an idiot.

    Comment by Arn — January 2, 2008 @ 1:35 pm | Reply

  49. “If Vietnam lost, that doesn’t mean we lost.”

    More stupidity from Sisy,,, the war was between north and south vietnam,, so of course vietnam lost,, but vietnam also won. And the whole thing turned into a staging ground to test our might against China’s,, and we lost there too. But, as I said,, one piece of evidence to back up your statements please. I could fill several pages with links to prove you are wrong, all I ask is just one little thing that’s supports your side here.

    Comment by Arn — January 2, 2008 @ 1:46 pm | Reply

  50. That’s asking too much from Sisyphus, Arn.

    Comment by Elephant Bones — January 2, 2008 @ 2:03 pm | Reply

  51. Just for a bit of updated info on 1975: Just a few weeks before the fall of vietnam to the communists President Ford requested an additional 300 million in funds for the war in vietnam (sound like we weren’t involved still?) and was refused by Congress, it was then agreed between both the Republican and Democratic members that we had been defeated in Vietnam and our only choice was to leave. We did so three weeks later, April 30th 1975.

    If both the Democratic party and the Republican party say we lost, why do you still insist we won?

    Comment by Arn — January 2, 2008 @ 2:10 pm | Reply

  52. “Pressure from the traitor Dems in Congress and their Marxist Hippie allies.”

    Ignorance by Sisyphus — January 2, 2008 @ 1:11 pm

    So what you’re saying is the cut an run conservatard Republicans could’nt even stand up to smelly hippies and Liberals?

    Cowardess.

    Comment by Spacebrother — January 2, 2008 @ 3:31 pm | Reply

  53. Happy New Year everybody!!! Sorry I’ve been MIA. An old war injury has kept me in the VA hospital. Anyone wants to see the hell that awaits America if Hill-dog gets her way, visit one of us in the hospital. Anyhoo, imagine my surprise that my hometown is actually mentioned on this site. WOOO B-more in the house. Like many issues plaguing my beloved city are just symptoms of the one party (the G-dless Democrats of Maryland Party) system that has crippled the city and state. Baltimore is what you get with non-stop democratic control. Sure, they just decided to raise the sales tax again, that will solve the crippling crime. I love Maryland. So much that I hardly noticed when they taxed me while I served over in Iraq and Afganland. Yep, my home state had the “who haws” to tax me in a federal tax free zone. I’m not certain who the others are, but Maryland is one of just three states that have the nerve to take money from military members serving in combat zones. So how bad is Maryland? In all honesty, “The Wire” is pretty much a documentary, especially the later seasons as they follow the real life corrupt antics of our current Hellspawn Governor Martin O’Malley. So what is going to happen in this case? Nothing really. Everyone with enough money have either fled the city or are rich enough to live in secure little fiefdoms in the city. You all can make you cute little jokes about Ben Franklin and spread all your pro-democratic tripe, my city is still sick. The first murder of the year happened less than an hour into the New Year in a violent home invasion during a New Year’s Party. I guess if the victims were better liberals and asked if the killer wanted a huge and gave them everything they had, a young man wouldn’t have been killed in front of his friends and family. I guess they are Nazis for not being poor and on government handouts. But hey, keep arguing over stupid semantics, its only minorities and poor people getting killed.

    Comment by Diablo — January 2, 2008 @ 4:45 pm | Reply

  54. So what you’re saying Diablo is you hate rich people but you vote for them to run your life?

    Maybe it’s a case of coveting. Odd how you blame the rich, the poor, minorities and Democrats. You must be a Republican. My guess is you support th enablers of death and destruction while thinking it’s Gods will or something. You poor poor lost soul. If you spent as much time loving instead of hating the world, you may recover from your manic depressive state of mind. I would recomend seeking therapy from a shrink.

    Comment by SisyphusLicksPsycheoutsPussy — January 3, 2008 @ 1:42 am | Reply

  55. Speaking of cut and run Spacebro, did Sisy just cut and run from this thread? Must not have been able to find that evidence to support his stupid claims here. Oh well,, another one bites the dust. How many threads has he done that on now? He’s such a chickensh**. You would think that he would try to defend himself or admit when he’s wrong, but no, he just cuts and runs and hides himself in another thread, only to be proven wrong again and have to cut and run again. Must be a Republican thing,, cut and run.

    Comment by Arn — January 3, 2008 @ 7:36 am | Reply

  56. Glad to have you back, Diablo.

    Arn:

    “OK, Sisy’s an idiot, no further comment necessary. But just to be fair here Sisy, show us just one little piece of evidence that we won in Nam,, just one,,, you can’t do it becauase you are wrong. We started losing during the Tet offensive and we never regained the upper hand again. We lost, plain and simple,, since you obviously don’t remember those days yourself go ahead and search for information on the outcome of the vietnam war, if you find anything saying we won (officially, not some other idiots blog, but real documentation on our victory) then please post it. I know you wont find it though, because it doesn’t exist. But, once an idiot always an idiot, and you are definately an idiot.”

    On the last day we were in Vietnam, our friends controlled Saigon. Vietnam was still free. That’s what it takes.

    We kept sending our friends money after we won the war, and they lost THEIR war with our money. So what? People lose wars all the time. Many of them are our friends. Doesn’t mean we lose every war they lose. Watching your friend get beat up isn’t the same thing as getting your nose broken- only a treefrog would claim otherwise.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 3, 2008 @ 1:01 pm | Reply

  57. We don’t need advice on winning wars from people that are 0-2 for their last conflicts, thank you very much. By the way, we won in Vietnam, and we’re winning in Iraq.

    Correction: You WOULD BE winning in Iraq if you were able to come up with some new strategical and tactical doctrines. Your doctrines today are still geared towards open warfare, cold war style. Which is all fine and dandy when it comes to pounding armies with 30 years old stuff into the ground in an open engagement. But it completely fails at what´s the real job to be done in Iraq now: peace keeping.

    If you don´t want advice from germans, ask brits, dutch, canadians or israelis, they can teach you quite a bit.

    What seems to still not get into your head is that in a counter-insurgency-situation, taking and holding ground becomes completely irrelevant and that firepower alone will NOT solve a problem.

    Comment by PG — January 3, 2008 @ 1:09 pm | Reply

  58. I still don’t see any evidence other than your own silly opinion there Sisy. Come on, you can find just one person to agree with you can’t you (not other members here, that wouldn’t wash) and on that last day they didn’t leave a free country, they were running for their lives.

    Comment by Arn — January 3, 2008 @ 1:14 pm | Reply

  59. Sisy gives up and loses another one.

    Comment by Arn — January 3, 2008 @ 9:42 pm | Reply

  60. Sisyphus works for a living, Arn. Sisyphus doesn’t always have time to argue with you. Tomorrow, after Sisyphus has rested, Sisyphus will find you your precious sources.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 3, 2008 @ 11:09 pm | Reply

  61. Sisyphus works for a living, Arn. Sisyphus doesn’t always have time to argue with you. Tomorrow, after Sisyphus has rested, Sisyphus will find you your precious sources.

    No kidding. I’m sick of these no life, no job losers snacking on government cheese and rolling doobies who constantly criticize us for not responding within minutes to their nonsensical dribblings.

    We write, you read, you comment. Get a life. We don’t cater to blame America first stoner losers like you.

    Wait your turn.

    Comment by Psycheout — January 3, 2008 @ 11:22 pm | Reply

  62. Your blog, your responsibility.

    Comment by Elephant Bones — January 4, 2008 @ 12:28 am | Reply

  63. “No kidding. I’m sick of these no life, no job losers snacking on government cheese and rolling doobies”

    You really shouldn’t tell lies about someone you don’t know, I’ve spent more years working than you’ve spent alive, and I’ve never recieved anything from the government other than an honorable discharge from the military,, oh yeah, I got that discharge in 1975. But Sisy still insists he knows more about Nam than those of us that were in the military during Nam.(I was still there through ’74, so I know we didn’t all leave in 73 as he claims) As for those sources, they don’t exist unless he’s going to try and find some idiot with a blog that thinks like he does, that wont work as a source, only official sources, like say, the department of defense. And you don’t win a war by leaving before it’s over, that’s just a stupid idea.

    Comment by Arn — January 4, 2008 @ 7:02 am | Reply

  64. By the way, psyche, you’re the loser, not me. But it is almost admirable the way you stick up for your boyfriend, you did that on the platypus page too, but he never returned, he wrote it then went and hid because he knew he was wrong from the start on that one.
    But just out of curiosity, do you think we won in Nam too? Or are you just defending Sisy because he’s your boyfriend?

    Comment by Arn — January 4, 2008 @ 7:14 am | Reply

  65. (they are thinking about an answer now, beeing both “at work” in the closet)

    Comment by MoxoM — January 4, 2008 @ 8:09 am | Reply

  66. Bet you have some interesting stories to tell, Arn. Truthful ones, too, so that’s 2-0 against the blog writers.

    Comment by Elephant Bones — January 4, 2008 @ 9:29 am | Reply

  67. Gee, Arn, here’s a whole slew of links that say we won the war:

    US won Vietnam war

    Here’s a good one in particular:

    Statistics about the Vietnam War

    “91% of Vietnam Veterans say they are glad they served

    “74% said they would serve again even knowing the outcome…

    “The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America’s commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism…

    “The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. (Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a renowned expert on the Vietnam War) This included Tet 68, which was a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

    “THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM, THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE DID.

    “Facts about the end of the war:

    “The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973. How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides’ forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification”

    NOW who’s an idiot liar, Arn?

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 4, 2008 @ 11:54 am | Reply

  68. the first link shows nothing in specific at all that you “won the war”it is merely an amount of search results on all the words in the sentence that you have typed.

    The second link also shows some statistics, and no evidence that any America has “won the Vietnam war”

    Comment by MoxoM — January 4, 2008 @ 12:09 pm | Reply

  69. You stopped fighting even though the VC and the NVA were still active and threatening the same government which´s protection was your primary goal. That´s some cut & run worthy to be compared to the FRENCH.

    The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence.

    Because there were no big battles that had any consequence to the outcome of the war. In the conventional headups, you kept stomping the commies. But it was the asymetric warfare that decided the outcome of the war. And there, well, we can all se who ran away like a crying, little nancy, leaving his own allies out in the rain.

    Simply put:
    US war goals:
    Primary: Vietnam is not to be reunited under communist rule.
    Secondary: It is to be reunited under a democratic government like that in the south.

    NVA war goals:
    Reunite the country under communistic rule

    Whoever fulfills his goals while preventing the other side from doing so is the winner. Has been like that in any war ever fought and will be like that in any war that will be fought in the future.
    Guess who´s fulfilled his goals. It´s not the US.

    We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides’ forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification”

    And everyone and his grandma were smart enough to see what that meant: Communist Vietnam. That whole “peace settlement” was just a deal stricken with the commies. The US keep their face (at least part of) and the NVA and VC save some casualties while getting their country under their government. That whole agreement was plainly spoken an admission of defeat from the USA.

    Comment by PG — January 4, 2008 @ 12:24 pm | Reply

  70. Noted historian and author Gabriel Kolko has observed, “If we use conventional military criteria, the Americans should have been victorious. They used 15 million tons of munitions (as much as they employed in World War Two), had a vast military superiority over their enemies by any standard one employs, and still they were defeated.”[9] Edward N. Luttwak of Time Magazine said, “The customary reward of defeat, if one can survive it, is in the lessons thereby learned, which may yield victory in the next war. But the circumstances of our defeat in Vietnam were sufficiently ambiguous to deny the nation (that) benefit.”

    Just a short quote from one of your links.
    And you still can’t tell me that we weren’t there through 74 because I know better, so do a lot of other vets that were there and in Cambodia in 74. yet most still claim we were never in cambodia.
    Also that second link is to the opinion of someone else, not an official site, that exact same thing can be found in other places too, word for word copied and pasted from one site to another just like a blog. Show me where the DOD says we won, after all that is the ONLY really acceptable source when it comes to military matters, politicians, bloggers, even many reporters will sway stories to their liking. I found that myth story on seven different sites, but none of them accredited news sources. Although much (actually even most) of that was true, not all troops left in 73 as claimed there, the building that the huey took off from was as said in that post another building not the embassy, I can’t identify that building by sight, but it’s definately not the embassy (whether it’s military or air america I can’t say from the pic and I wasn’t there so it could have been either). And that was a pic of just one helicopter, the last one to leave, they started leaving the day before on the 29th and yes there were still military personnel there, but perhaps not in that last chopper, anyone who wasn’t there can’t tell you for sure because hearsay is not accepted by courts, so therefore, not by me either.

    by the way, you posted a link to a page with a bunch of links by doing a search for “US won vietnam war” but did you bother to read those pages? That kind of search just includes those words in no particular order and if you had gone to those links provided you would have found that most of them really say we lost.
    You should just go to the DOD’s official site and find out what they say about it. Or do you want me to do it for you?

    Comment by Arn — January 4, 2008 @ 1:19 pm | Reply

  71. No need, Arn. If you won’t believe the statistics I’ve already provided you, it certainly won’t convince you if you find less accurate statistics posted by some mid-level moonbat bureaucrat on the DOD website.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 4, 2008 @ 1:55 pm | Reply

  72. Nope, I’m talking about reports filed with the DOD by the then Republican administration.

    Comment by Arn — January 4, 2008 @ 1:58 pm | Reply

  73. “On the last day we were in Vietnam, our friends controlled Saigon. Vietnam was still free. That’s what it takes.”

    “We kept sending our friends money after we won the war, and they lost THEIR war with our money. So what? People lose wars all the time. Many of them are our friends. Doesn’t mean we lose every war they lose.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 3, 2008 @ 1:01 pm

    Links? Prove your point boy. Show me a direct link to any sight that proves America won the Vietnam war.

    Comment by Spacebrother — January 4, 2008 @ 2:00 pm | Reply

  74. And controlling Saigon didn’t mean they were free, Sure they controlled Saigon until 75 but that’s just one city which was completely cut off from the rest of the country by the VC, you can’t claim a victory for holding one city while the rest of the country was under VC control.

    Comment by Arn — January 4, 2008 @ 2:09 pm | Reply

  75. “…”

    Non-embedded Link by Sisyphus — January 4, 2008 @ 11:54 am

    The above non-embedded links (Ed is an [MEANIE] for bitching about me not embedding links but lets his little monkey get away with it) actually disprove your own point. If you ever visit the Vietnam war memorial in Virginia, you’ll see that there were troops there well into the 90’s. You’ll also note that we still have troops there now in 2007 (30+ years after the so-called end). If we won, we would’nt have any troops there.

    I guess Sisyphus lives in eternal fantasy land.

    [Ed Note: Please don’t cry. I’m not here 24/7. And reposting the link doesn’t really help, now does it?]

    Comment by Spacebrother — January 4, 2008 @ 2:09 pm | Reply

  76. He did provide links SB one to a blog page and one to a search page with a whole bunch of links to articles that said we lost (he screwed up the search a bit) and a couple blogspots that say we won.

    Comment by Arn — January 4, 2008 @ 2:11 pm | Reply

  77. Yeah. He proved himself wrong did’nt he?

    Comment by Spacebrother — January 4, 2008 @ 2:24 pm | Reply

  78. No, I proved myself right. If you two knuckleheads aren’t man enough to admit it, that’s okay by me. I’m used to disappointment when it comes to leftists owning up to being wrong.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 4, 2008 @ 2:28 pm | Reply

  79. If you took a pole in America right now, 99% of us will say America lost.

    You should lay off ther hash Brownback brownies Sisyphus. They cloud your judgement.

    Comment by Spacebrother — January 4, 2008 @ 2:35 pm | Reply

  80. ”…”

    Non-embedded Link by Sisyphus — January 4, 2008 @ 11:54 am

    Will Ed do anything about Sisyphus’ non-embedded link or is he a total hypocrit?

    [Ed Note: What a crybaby.]

    Comment by Spacebrother — January 4, 2008 @ 2:40 pm | Reply

  81. I have to agree with Sisy on several points though, (or on his source’s points) most of what was said on the page his second link was to was accurate. The original person to put that together was very well informed and much of it was obviously well researched. I would disagree with several of his percentage points, but I have no research to back it up, just my own personal opinion from my own point of view and those of many other vietnam vets I’ve known.
    The few errors I found could be just biased (even if unintentional) research coupled with personal opinions of the author. For instance, the idea that 4 out of 5 people who claim to be vietnam vets are not really vietnam vets. This is true from one angle. Many are vietnam era veterans that never served in Nam, so their claim is only false if they specifically say they were in vietnam. However, it still holds true that more than half of them lie about the years they served in order to put themselves in the right era. A quick look at their DD214 would settle that question. Even after all these years I still have copies of several pages from my 201 file, but I really have no idea why they are still around, I just run across them now and then when I’m looking for something else.
    So also his claim that we won was based on personal opinion rather than any official declaration of victory.
    During tricky dicks second bid for the presidency I strongly supported McGovern/Shriver, mainly because of the war and several illegal acts (the legality of our administrations actions there is still a matter under debate so I wont make any outragious claims here on the specific crimes as I see them for my only evidence can be my opinion). But looking back now, I don’t think McGovern would have made a good leader. Maybe what we need is another coke snorter like Kennedy. I can’t say for sure if it was him or Jackie, but one of them knew how to run the government.

    Comment by Arn — January 4, 2008 @ 3:00 pm | Reply

  82. ” I’m used to disappointment when it comes to leftists owning up to being wrong.”
    comment by Sisy

    Good for you, now tell us all about the platypus again.

    Comment by Arn — January 4, 2008 @ 3:02 pm | Reply

  83. No, I proved myself right. If you two knuckleheads aren’t man enough to admit it, that’s okay by me. I’m used to disappointment when it comes to leftists owning up to being wrong.

    They asked for an ofiicial source telling that the US won Vietnam. All you linked were blogs stating so (which are NOT official) and some rather more official sources stating that the USA have lost fair and square. YOu DID prove yourself wrong.

    The real bummer here is that, from a military standpoint, the USA should have won. But in the end it are the political goals that really determine the winner (Clausewitz was at least partially right that war is just the continuation of politics using other means), not the killrates. And there we STILL have to simply look at the kind of government sitting today in Vietnam. It´s communism.

    Comment by PG — January 4, 2008 @ 3:24 pm | Reply

  84. Sisyphus doesn’t know what a reliable source is. Explains his ignorance.

    Comment by Elephant Bones — January 4, 2008 @ 5:24 pm | Reply

  85. we won every war in history, huh sisyphus? My history teacher says we lost in vietnam and in korea so should I believe you or my teacher? And if I believe the wrong one will my grades go down?
    I think that you are just a stupid person that likes to start fights on the internet.Get a life you are totally gay.

    Comment by freakydeaky — January 4, 2008 @ 5:44 pm | Reply

  86. “If you took a pole in America right now,”

    No thank you.

    “I think that you are just a stupid person that likes to start fights on the internet.Get a life you are totally gay.”

    Look who’s talking.

    Comment by Sisyphus — January 5, 2008 @ 2:06 pm | Reply

  87. Sisyphus, do you want to argue with a 13 year old about who is gay? I think that answers the question, thank you.

    Comment by freakydeaky — January 5, 2008 @ 2:16 pm | Reply

  88. Congratulations, Sisyphus, you’ve found someone that can argue with you on your level.

    Comment by Elephant Bones — January 5, 2008 @ 4:13 pm | Reply

  89. Thank you elephant bones, I think, but I dont think I want to go all the way down to his level.

    Comment by freakydeaky — January 5, 2008 @ 6:51 pm | Reply

  90. Sisyphus, cut down in his prime by a child. That’s just too funny.

    Comment by Arn — January 6, 2008 @ 8:31 am | Reply

  91. the sole purpose of this article appears to be an attempt at suggesting the final battle between good and evil (Armegeddon) is to be fought between the American military and the seventh grade.

    My money is on the seventh graders, they are much smarter people than the leaders of the military.

    Comment by Arn — January 6, 2008 @ 5:21 pm | Reply

  92. While I don’t know if a concentrated attack on pubescent children is necessary, I do agree that we need to stop pussyfooting around when it comes to these things. Far too often, America feels the need to wait and see what happens before doing anything. That’s reactionary, and it only leads to more problems.

    We need more proactive solutions. That’s why I applaud President Bush’s initial decision to go into Iraq (even though it’s a quagmire now), and that’s why, especially as an educator, I approve of bolstering security in our nation’s schools.

    Of course, proactive measures are not without their faults. The presence of too much of a force, however passive, has been shown in history to incite riots and revolutions. Surely there must be some sort of balance?

    Comment by Brian-sama — January 8, 2008 @ 3:27 pm | Reply

  93. Animals, who give criminals a bad name.

    I smashed a few windows in my youth – but how many of us have smashed an innocent face or two in our youths ?

    Big difference.
    Animals, who need to be caged.

    Comment by Animlas — March 29, 2008 @ 5:29 pm | Reply

  94. When I was younger, we used to go to the county golf course, of a place called Nassau Shores, in Massapequa, NY. We used to play a legitimate 8 holes. The 9th hole, was located directly across the street from a series of homes, and no extensive fencing beyond the 6-foot wire contraption existed. These were the same greens that later on in the evening we would all return to, meet up with the girls, down beer, smoke pot, and listen to Slayer, Anthrax, and Metallica. On a good night, Id get laid by a girl named Kim Chullo on the 9th hole green.

    Oh, the memories.

    In any case, during the daytime, the 9th hole wasnt a place of fornication – but rather a place for target practice. The homes which lined that street paralell to the green on Cedar Shore Drive, had nice big garage windows, and cars in the driveway.

    Fore…! Smash ! Oopsie !

    And those were the worst crimes I ever did as part of my youth. But today ? By today’s standards, we’d have set up one of the flakier “friends” among us, to meet up and party. When this one arrived, we’d all gang beat him, or her (gender doesnt seem to matter these days when it comes to kid’s violent attacks). We’d have someone video-tape the entire thing, for enjoyment at a later date. Then, when we all got arretsed, we’d cry victimhood and run to our parents for protection – who would shamelessly go to bat for us.

    Boy, times have changed.

    Comment by Youthful Indescretions — April 13, 2008 @ 3:50 pm | Reply


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